(While you’re here, check out more from Making Chutney.)
Richard says he pays for everything himself, not the University. If true, this gets him out of legal hot water. But he’ll still have to answer ethically for the $50,000 of clothes, a $30,000 senior trip for his daughter, ORU employees being paid to do his daughters’ homework, and so much more. All of that paid for by money raised by folks donating to his “ministry.”
In other news, I’ve only known three or four ORU students through the years (that I can remember), and all of them have been gay men. Curious.
While you’re here, check out more of Making Chutney.
The truth will come out in the end
I’m familiar with this ministry, and I’m going to go with Richard Roberts and his wife being clean. Most evangelists fall due to sexual misconduct. Some people find that more forgivable than messing with the finances. I’d bet his daughters had paid tutors, not people doing their homework. If his daughter used the jet, I’ll bet it was a piggyback ride while the jet was going there on church business. So stone me, but I’ve seen these people give a lot.
It might be considered a Christian university, but I doubt they would turn away a gay person no matter what their views on the lifestyle. If those students you knew were gay when they came out, I’ll bet they were gay when they went in, and they were certainly able to graduate.
Betty Magee, I hope you’ve heard of the “really?!?” segment with Seth and Amy over at SNL…
REALLY? you REALLY think that Richard is comepletely clean? REALLY? have you had extensive experience with their lavish and “hello, I’m above you, bow please” lifestyle? you REALLY think that Lindsey’s CONVERTIBLE MERCEDES is a fitting accessory? REALLY? I do. If you actually have read the brief (which didn’t outline Lindsey’s hinted affairs with underage male students, or the exclusive trip that outed a ministry employee to commercial airlines while the daughter and friends were lavishly treated to a senior trip) you would have seen at the end that professor’s Brooker and Swails sued for $10,000, plus $10,000 legal costs. Legal costs are usually a percentage of the final compensation, not equal to it; they aren’t doing it for their gain, only in response to a slanderous mistreatment leveled against them b/c they refused to play ball/er, fall on the sword that Richard and lawyers drew and pointed at them. I saw programs introduced, cut, and entire departments axed b/c of budget cuts, just in my four years; don’t TELL me that they are above reproach. No one is. That very mindset is what is endangering their ministry in the public eye (that small positive part that still breaths).
I have more to write, but that may be at a later date. O, and one more note about the homosexual lifestyle being appreciated/approved of at ORU. HA!!!!!!!! John Hagee specifically stated that all gays are going to hell, and that they should leave the university that very instant, in a well-SUPPORTED (by Richard and Lindsey) chapel service spring of ’02. One of my good friends during those years was lesbian, and she was in the closet the entire time b/c she would be EXPELLED if she officially came out; haven’t you heard of ORU OUT? I’m not condoning the homosexual lifestyle, ms. magee, just asking you to do some fact-checking outside your rose-colored respirator. That administration has and continues to shock and amaze fiscally responsible ministries and alumni world-wide. God have mercy upon their souls, for all the alumni that are calling, emailing, and writing into the school certainly aren’t.
[…] knew linking to a Tulsa World article could do that? I never thought I’d say this, but thanks ORU![1] Damn. I shouldn’t have […]
I think they r all liars and hypocrites. And they alone will answer to God one day.But then again Jesus did warn us that in this world we would have wolves dressed in sheep clothing, well, in lindsys case, chico or chinos clothes.
Hi. I’m old (mid thirties) a cynic, and my mom works for ORU. Yep. She’s a professional pray-er. I don’t subscribe to her belief system or like her big box church passion. However, my mom is the kind of person you’d want to have praying for you if you believed in that type of thing. She has worked the suicide shift (8p.m. to 2:00 a.m.) and the day shift, and has listened to, prayed for and offered encouragement to some of the most desperate people you can imagine. Although I’m not a big fan of the televangelist concept, I consider the Roberts (Richard and Lindsey not Oral) to be relatively on the up and up and think there’s a bit of a double standard. Have y’all looked at most college presidents these days? They make more than the President of the United States, drive flashy cars and jet about like Saudi princes. If some of the allegations are true (Lindsey’s emails to adolescents staff doing of their daughter’s homework or jet trips to the Bahamas, that is disapointing and inapropriate. If the other stuff is true (they drive flashy cars and redecorate their house all the time on their own salaries) then it simply reflects the same financial misjudgement that is hitting the country so hard right now. At that rate, you can only point the finger if you eschew worldly things like flashy cars, big houses, designer clothes etc.
My personal experiences indicate to me that the Roberts are not the uber flashy types they are made out to be. I’ve seen Rishard shopping at Walmart. My brother broke his (Richard’s) collar bone at a company picnic with no mean repercussions whatsoever. I think everyone should take a deep breath and wait to see what the facts are before judging.
Rachel, just so you know, mid-30s isn’t old on this website. It’s just about right.
My impression of the Robertses the last time I happened upon their program, which was probably a couple of months ago, was that Richard was going through the motions but that Lindsay was really pushing the money angle. That’s also the impression I got from the news articles I’ve read—the allegations seem to be more about Lindsay (and the daughters) more than Richard. But there just isn’t that much info out there, that I’ve found, to know for sure one way or another.
We love Richard and Lindsay, they are the best!!!
one correction: they are suing for “damages.” which may amount to more than $10,00. As far as the character, I’m better than you stuff, that’s a perception, and you can’t hang someone on a perception. What I have known, and still know, is their lifestyle doesn’t exceed the means of a Tulsa, OK televangelist; they’re right in the middle of that demographic, sadly. In the end, they may come clean, and be “legally” absconded from all “wrongdoing” but the perception of immorality or fiscal irresponsibility is still a huge issue in any church community, and I hope that their reputation is hung out to dry b/c of it.
the text messages could and may have been penned by Lindsey’s daughters, and it would be quite hard to prove even with video that Lindsey actually wrote them.
The problem with this lawsuit arises when people who are attached by the throat/pocketbook to this ministry/school is that they follow their hearts, not their heads. if they would drive around campus, see the canadian goose sanctuary that should be a multi-million $$ campus events center by spring of ’05 (it’s fenced off, the placard is still up saying the vision Richard had for the place in ’01), or the disrepair of all dorms/buildings, yet look at the lifestyle the Roberts’ lead, there are questions to be asked. I know personally that the dorm renovations and Lindsey’s cars are legit; she bragged about her cars in chapel, and you had to be blind not to see the blatant favoritism shown to Jordan (however you spell her name). Their misuse of school monies are blatant as well; a worship leader major was initiated, with substantial scholarships given to those who wanted to LEAD WORSHIP. I am a worship leader; you need experience, not classroom time. Point being: MANY music/vocal performance/education majors had their scholarships cut by, o, NINETY PERCENT. One of the guys on my floor had to leave ORU b/c of that. he was amazingly talented, but the money wasn’t there, b/c the ministry took his money to give to someone wanting to have stage presence. If I sound bitter, that’s because I and 98% of ORU alums are. the school experience was fantastic, I met my wife there, and we learned so much, and had great faculty, but the administration ruined the total experience for us, and for many many others.
o, and mike? do some research! blindly following someone b/c you “love them” doesn’t say much for your convictions.
OH, GOD HELP US ALL !!!
I’LL EVEV SEND YOU SOME $$$$$$$
OR YOU CAN TAKE ME THE PROMISED LAND ???
“PERSONALLY, I’LL GO TO THE PROMISED LAND” !!!
WHO WANT’S TO STICK AROUND HERE, AND RAISE MONEY ???
First let’s compare apples with apples and not apples with oranges here.
Presidents of a University with 5,000 students do not drive a brand new Mercedes AND a brand new Lexus. They may draw a low $ 6-figure income but they definitely don’t get a corporate jet. Case in point, my alma mater, Shepherd University with a population of around 4,000 students. Close enough to ORU to make a fair comparison. The president at Shepherd will only dream of such things.
Now if we were talking West Virginia University (27K+), Virginia Tech (25K+), University of North Carolina (27K+), or any other larger school of that nature, then I would agree he needs the big $ salary and the brand new luxury cars and MAYBE the corporate jet.
Secondly, has anyone actually attended ORU? …that would be besides myself? I went there in the early 90’s (when Oral was still at the helm) and then transferred to Shepherd to finish my degree. The first year was OK…the second year I had DeJa Moo…(the feeling I heard that B.S. before)
No gays are allowed and you are not to have sex outside of marriage. I never saw a gay kicked out but….unwed females that got pregnant? They were sitting at the Tulsa bus station by the end of the day once the university found out. They would kick those girls out so fast it would make your head spin. I should know…I saw it happen 3 times during the 2 years I was there.
Firing of Professors that disagree with the Administration? Absolutely! My sister (who was attending Grad. School at the time) witnessed one of her Profs. getting fired because he disagreeded with the Administration. It doesn’t surprise me that it happened again. The Roberts family surrounds themselves with “Yes Men”. As long as you are agreeing with them, things are fine. Once you say “no”, you’re on your way to getting replaced. ORU is nothing more than the “Roberts’ Country Club”.
ORU had a policy of letting students start the semester without their account being “paid in full”. About 1/2 way through the semester that outstanding balance became due. This would always happen during a Chapel service. The RA’s would pull the “offenders” out. Once this happened, all the RA’s would line the sidewalks (leading to another building) on both sides like Nazi storm troopers (only they wore a shirt and tie). The “offenders” were then herded like cattle to “a room” in the other building where they were forced against their will to stay until their balance was paid. If the “offending student” was still not able to come up with the money to pay their balance in full, they were doing the duffle bag drag to the Tulsa bus station by days end. I witnessed 2 of my bros. doing the duffle bag drag in the 2 years I was there.
My sister just talked to a friend that is still in Tulsa and we found out that the Attorney that took the case…only takes “open and shut” or “slam dunk” cases. He doesn’t accept any case he thinks is flaky. Although I never personally witnessed any criminal activity, everyone knew that shady stuff was going on behind the scenes. The only thing that surprises me about this whole thing is that it took 15 years after I left the school for the truth to come out. Sadly, it’s about time.
While the things I saw while I was there were not necessarily criminal in nature, they were definitely a blatant abuse of power. Power corrupts, and Absolute power corrupts absolutely. In closing, I don’t trust the Roberts family any further than I can throw them. I will give to Shepherd University (a state run school) before I will ever give to ORU. I know too much.
I think that if there was any truth to these allegations…the people making them would have resigned instead of being fired…interesting how they didn’t make any fuss until that happened…
I am a recent graduate from ORU. I, like the Robert’s family grew up in the ministry. I know how the outside can treat those who are pastors or in high authority. For some reason, the world believes that preachers/those in ministry should work for free, drive old cars, and heaven forbid–never wear anything new!. COME ON PEOPLE!!! He made the money, he should be allowed to spend as he pleases. No one tells you how to spend your money- then why should you feel you have a say in how someone in the ministry should spend theirs? Im tired of this mentality that Christians should be poor- If we were all poor, how can we help one another? How can we keep the church doors open? Good for lindsey- she has a Mercedes. I think thats WONDERFUL! Just shows that you can be a Christian and not have to beg or pray and fast for money. Christians Should be prosperous yet when we see one, we automatically condem them—WHY?? Because of our own insecurities- I stand behind the Robert’s family- They are good people. they have done so many good things in this world. Can you even compare? So why point out their faults? Im sure all this nasty dirt being thrown up about lindsey and the teenage boys are lies- Have you seen this woman? She would never! ANd where are these teenage boys that she supposedly texted all the time- Surely they would have stepped up by now–Heck, they would be on national television. SO, I find it odd, there are no witnessess. Who cares about the 30,000 sensior trip and the 50,000 in clothes. Goood gosh, I spend more than 50,000 in clothes a year and I am not even on TV. So, go ahead and pick up those rocks and begin to throw–but before you do, take a look at your own self!
Rachael, you make me sick. there’s a SLIGHT difference between living within your means, being wise with what God’s given you, and letting the extravagance of Tulsa religiosity (of which you seem afflicted as well) go to your head. I know of NO ONE ELSE that spends even close to that amount. If she spent HALF that much in a year, she could finance an ENTIRE STUDENT MISSIONS TRIP. That goes for you too; stop carrying water for other filthy rich people, start looking at how most people OUTSIDE the ministry live their lives, if you can look away from the mirror that long. the damning thing I see is that they are choosing to live like that USING TITHE AND OFFERINGS, not dividends off investments, or the fruits of their labor, and no, I don’t think that 400-600k a YEAR is equal compensation for their labors. possibly 100k. Tulsa also has one of the lowest costs of living in the nation; they CERTAINLY don’t need all the extras.
Ghost, I also attended, but more recently: 01-05, and I saw much the same you did; there was more secrecy due to heightened sensitivity of discrimination, but now the due-date is 2 weeks into the semester, not two months as when you were attending; if you can’t get your $$ in, you’re out, and unceremoniously at that.
The saddest thing is that most of us alumni are sad, not shocked, that this has come out. My professors were extremely careful not to say anything that conflicted directly with the admin, and they were theology professors! if ANYONE had an axe to grind over the blatant misuse of Biblical texts, they did, and they kept their mouths shut, for good reason. That’s sad.
I have lived in Tulsa since I was 5 years old. I am 25 now. My dad moved my family from the sunny state of Florida, to move to middle America for him to go to ORU. I have grown up around people who went to the school, church, and events that ORU was over. I have seen what that school and their ‘president’ has done to people. First of all, Lindsay Roberts is an extreme schovinist, flashy, wanna be celebrity. And her daughters are right along with her. Richard is not so much. He is all about the school. (from what I see) Has anyone EVER seen the house they live in? Yes it belongs to the school, but they have lived in it for their entire marriage. It is a mansion with a gated fence and a guest house which is the size of a normal middle class persons’ house. Lindsay does have 2 vehicles, possibly more. And they are not Fords, or Chevy’s. One is a Mercades, and one is a Lexus. I have personially seen her drive around town in them. I used to work at Wal-Mart, that is across the street from the school. Last winter we had a really bad ice storm move through the area, and a ton of people were purchasing new wiper blades. A security guarde from ORU came in, and needed a wiper blade set for a Lexus. I told him that we had the more expensive wipers for $15 a blade, or the cheap ones for $5 a blade. He said ‘you better give me the best ones. These are for Lindsay Robert’s car, and she’ll get mad if I don’t get the best ones.’ This was in the middle of the day, and he was on the clock. Another thing, on the local news right after this whole thing started, Richard was talking in chapel telling the students that this whole thing is about money. That is all that these professors want is money. If he was not so money oriented, then he wouldn’t have even said that. this isn’t about money, this is about what is right and what is wrong. And everything that his family has been doing over the past 25 years, is WRONG. Judging people by the way they look, or if they have money, or if they are handicaped. You people don’t even know the hell that his family has put people through. So yes, I believe that all of these rumors are true. Believe what you want. The truth will set you free!!!
Rachel- I came out of the whole faith/prosperity thing- I really do not get it, My husband is a Children’s pastor- we are not poor, we live comfortably. Our Senior and Associate pastors are retired military. They take a large paycut so our church can have a youth and children’s pastor. Our church supports missions and our church has had a surplus of $50,000 the past three years. We have under 200 members (most of whom are military families). Here is my problem with “it’s ok for them to have lot of money”- I don’t think it’s Biblical- the apostles gave what they had and shared it with those in need- People claim these televangelists do a lot of good- By whose standard? That’s great you spend $50,000 on clothes a year- What do you give to missions? If our money is truly God’s, shouldn’t we consult him on how to use it? Whether it is $10 or $10 million?
After reading all the comments, I decided to write. Let’s say, Mr. Roberts is on a salary, or maybe have royalties to book deals or even have a separate company he’s either invested in or even own. Spending money or even making money is not a sin. Ecc 10:19 – A feast is made for laughter, and wine maketh merry: but money answereth all things. BUT 1Timothy 6:10 -For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows. If he has the money from a legitimate source of income, then he is not at fault. But if the money came from Ministry or the University and it wasn’t suppose to, then of course, he’s at fault. To Rachael, it’s not a matter of being prosperous, but it’s perception of people being prosperous off the tithes and offerings of the ministry. It is a matter of people giving tithes for the storehouse of God but the money maybe used
for other things. Freewill of the checkbook if you may. Now I am not saying he is or is not doing this. God knows and so does the accountants, treasurers and whomever else. The truth will come out. Rather good or bad. If there is wrongdoing, I just pray they get it right……….
given the teasing habits of seniors in high school and the preponderance of homophobia in modern america, it sort of makes sense that all the grads of a university called ORAL roberts that you know are gay, chut.
whenever i hear it, i think of swinging richard’s. hee.
Andrew Strong went there too. Sorry Dude!
The issue here is physcal responsibility. You’re missing the kicker. That was only one of the stores that Lindsey shops at. That didn’t include her shopping trips to Texas and California. That’s only 1 store. I wish I had $50K to blow on clothes per year. Heck, I wish I made $50K per year period. I get along on less than $40K per year, why can’t they do it with 100K instead of $700K. Just because they want to buy clothes that are hundreds or thousands of dollars a piece is their problem not mine. I don’t even get the choice to buy a $1000 piece clothing. I’m stuck with buying from Wal-Mart, going to Goodwill, and buying second hand clothes at yard sales. Heck, I just bought new underwear for the first time in 4.5 years. Do you really want to rant about how “reasonable” $50K per year is to spend on clothes at one store? Your out of your mind. Give me the $50K and I’ll buy all new clothes for my entire family, setup a trust fund for my kids, and still give almost half of that to missions. Give me the Mercedes and I’ll trade it in for a brand new Toyota and give the rest of the money to missions.
If the government spent excessively like these people are doing, there would be riots in the streets. But because it is a “televangelist” doing these things makes it OK? In your dreams!
ORU Profs. are some of the lowest paid in the industry for a school of its size. At the same time, the President of ORU rakes in almost $700K per year plus bennies (free cars, free corporate jet, etc.). That is well above the average for the same size school elsewhere. The President of Shepherd University will be lucky to pull in $200K per year with no car, no jet, and no additional benefits. The only difference is ORU has done a better job with their propaganda convincing people that their lavish lifestyle is only average. What a crock.
Now please try to erase from my memory of the blatant abuse of power I personally witnessed when I attended school there 15 years ago. Nothing has changed since then. It’s still the same old B.S. all over again. They just got caught this time.
Now on the case of what have I done to advance the Kingdom? Instead of following through with plans to selling stuff we no longer need, there has always been an opportunity to bless someone else. We have given away furniture to a family that had none. We gave away a washer and dryer to a family that had nothing and was starting from scratch. We gave clothes and dishes to various families that were burned out. When we needed the $ to put toward a newer vehicle, we instead gave my old truck away to a man that had none. We did the same with a car 4 years ago too. On numerous occasions we have purchased a trunk load of food and given it to folks who had nothing to eat. In some instances we have purchased things just so we could give to people in need. In all, we have given away around $4K – $5K worth of things instead of taking the cash that we needed. (And I didn’t get to claim any of those things on Taxes either) I’m not a pastor, a teacher, a healer or a loud mouthed evangelist. Who am I? I’m the quiet guy in the back of the church that will give you the shirt off his back if you needed it. I’m the encourager and administrator that is usually overlooked and ignored by you because I don’t have a magnetic personality. Don’t lecture me about what I do. I don’t go around yelling and screaming about my faith, I actually do it.
Hey S. Yes, I’ve been to Richard’s house. I was there in ’90 and ’91 (before all the remodeling projects) while Oral was still at the helm. My campus job was moving tables and chairs for all of the events on campus. We had a standing order of 60 tables and 360 chairs to Richard’s house with little notice. We also backed up the Mabee Center crew for big events.
You’re absolutely right about Richard’s house, it was huge in ’90 and I can’t imagine what they have done to the place since. The 4 or 5 car garage and pool too. They had a double door, stainless steel, industrial grade refrigerator in the kitchen when I was there. I’m sure that refrigerator has been upgraded or replaced with something more expensive since then. Their kitchen was bigger than my kitchen and living room combined. I don’t recall seeing a guesthouse then…that must have been added during one of the “remodeling” projects. It was a Mansion by 1990 standards but since the housing boom and market run-up of prices from 2001 to 2007, it is just big now. I would say that house (as I remember it) would be worth $1.5 – $2.0 million in Winchester, VA today. And Richard hasn’t paid a dime toward the house either. That is another one of his bennies that isn’t being counted. That is at least a $12K per month mortgage that he doesn’t have to pay let alone utilities.
have you ever read the employment contract for ORU….I went a few years ago to apply….I walked out after reading the two pages…it outlines how you are suppose to dress, act and pray. no sex unless married, no drinking, no smoking, and you cant be obese…under these guideline only saints need apply..
All right, folks. Let’s keep the all-caps shouting to a minimum. I’m starting to get a migraine.
Back when I went to church camp at ORU, I remember reading the dress/behavior code and balking. Having to wear a tie in college? And bed times? Even as a thirteen-year-old, I knew that wasn’t right—weren’t college students supposed to be adults?
Most of the criticism leveled here at the Roberts is loosely based on the current politically-correct ethics of our secular culture. God has no respect for such ethics as they are deeply rooted in hypocrisy. He will judge the Roberts based on their obedience to his voice and according to the hidden(from the eyes of critics) motives of their hearts.
Bill Abong, if the no obesity comment were indeed enforced, half the security guards would not have jobs anymore, nor a good percentage of the faculty. there is a code of conduct, but in regard to actual employees of the ministry, I think that experience and the right heart are much more important to them than the size of a person’s waistline.
On a side note, I just got a reply from George Pearsons, gpearsons@oru.edu, head administrator, whom I emailed after checking with friends still at ORU that he was indeed the top guy to send an email to. Ghost, you and all other alums may want to write him, as we alumni have a voice through him. His reply was a basic form letter, but one comment stood out: “I would be slow to recommend that you rely on media reports. they know so little.” in spiritual terms, this may be true, but as far as the information of the case goes, they were handed the entire document, alongside legal briefs. they know enough. Pray for God’s will, folks.
Jess
“loosely based?” have you BEEN to ORU, seen their lifestyle, been subject to the blatant favoritism? Yes, their heart motives and sensitivity to God’s voice will win out in the spiritual world, but in this country we aren’t in the spiritual world, we’re in the physical world. I don’t care how perfect you think they are, they have a plethora of SERIOUS allegations against them. in the spiritual world, we could say that their motives and spiritual clout are to be weighed here, but in the physical world, they still have ALOT of fiscal irresponsibility to overcome. hypocrisy? what are Christians, if not forgiven-but-still-practicing hypocrites? Thank you for the reminder that God will judge them; that will be exciting, but in the mean time, I’m interested in what the jucidial branch of our government has to say.
I am actually quite shocked at these allegations, but can see how this could happen. To be president of this university(dynasty) is a pretty prestigious thing in Tulsa. You have a lot of money, and a lot of influence, so you can become careless and get the “untouchable” syndrome.
I think the school does a lot of good, but of course, these allegations seem quite “two-faced” to me (and to everyone).
I applied for a position there, and with excellent references, related experience, and a master’s degree, I was denied. I later found out this was due to the fact that I mentioned on my application in reference to alcohol that I, “occasionally have a glass of wine.”
This does not surprise me, and I believe the Professors are being totally honest. I read a wonderful book called CHRISTIANITY IN CRISIS by HANK HANEGRAAFF in the past, and learned that Oral Roberts has pretty much always been a con man, and his seed-faith principles are not substantiated at all by Scripture!! The Word of Faith message is from the Metaphysical cults, and it is not from the true God of the Bible. I used to kind of like Richard Roberts, but after I saw him associating in a magazine with rank heresy and false teacher Joyce Meyer, I did not trust him anymore, and after reading Hank’s book, I would never watch TBN again. Richard and Lindsay need to repent, they are Charlatans, and my Pastor called them that!!!
If you have to modify my TRUTHFUL words, don’t even print them, go ahead, defend cons and their cover ups
My last comments, truthful ones, The PROFESSORS are totally honest people and correct, Richard and Lindsay, and Oral Roberts don’t know truth, they are practicing liars and should be put in prison with no chance of parole!!!!
I never have understood that its ok for rock stars to drive the best live in the best but Gods men and women are not suppose to… God wants the best for his people. i think its sad we try to find the very dirt on people and not the good.. find something better to do with ur time.. if you dont like them dont support them …… its like the tv turn it off if you dont want to see it… Carolyn
I must say I am confused by a lot of these arguments. Everyone wants to quote scripture but fails to realize the relevence of what they speak. I will only point out a couple of relevent scriptures:
Luke 10:7 “the labourer is worthy of his hire.”
I Timothy 5:17 “Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honor”
What sickens me is everyone that believes the head of a multi-million dollar organization is not worthy to be fairly compensated. If this was Hasbro or McDonalds it would be no big deal, but since it is a “Christian” organization it is different.
I graduated from a respected seminary and have been a pastor for many years. I have several friends in ministry that pastor churches of well over 5,000 members and they get the same grief that Mr. Roberts is running into. They are responsible for all the fund raising and managing multi-million dollar budgets. I also have several friends who are Presidents/CEO’s of organizations that are similar in size and the secular jobs DWARF the total compensation of my friends in ministry. Yet, if one of our friends in ministry drives a BENZ its considered a misappropriation of funds…c’mon when will this double standard stop! It’s OK to prosper, and if they live a great life, then why does everyone have to scream they are thieves (well we all know the answer to that one). God was very specific that the “Elders/Pastors” are WORTHY and should receive DOUBLE!! We are all accountable for our time on Earth on judgment day and hopefully you live your life accordingly.
Okay, so let’s give them double, for the sake of argument.
So that means everyone else is spending just $25,000 a year in new clothes. And $15,000 on senior trips. And a mere five-and-a-half renovations to their home over fourteen years. And on and on.
Or is that not the case at all?
If they were only getting double, no one would be upset about it. But they’re getting much, much more than double. And that’s the problem.
good point, chutney.
Carl, take a chill pill, and explain your rants.
Dear Mack, if only you stuck your head outside the privileged world in which you live, you’d realize that all those millions that ministries “raise” are charitable donations that people make so that the WORD OF GOD CAN BE PREACHED TO THOSE THAT NEED CHRIST. When I tithe to my church, I expect that money to be used wisely; if it’s not, you can bet I’ll be speaking to those responsible. I don’t care about cultures, or what’s fair, or consistent with the job they have. Show me a ministry head that buys used mid-level sedans (like a honda or toyota or nissan) and lives in a house that supports their needs, not their wants, and then we can talk about the “compensation” that Richard and co. receive. ANYONE that spends anywhere NEAR $50,000 a YEAR on clothing needs a check-up from the neck up. $39,000 a year in Chico’s alone is more than I make BEFORE taxes, and my wife and daughter and I make do with some trips thrown in to see family. I am a millionaire compared to, o, 90% of the world’s population, and consider myself blessed to be here. I don’t use my meager funds (by your standards) frivolously, nor should you, nor should the Roberts.
The problem here is Envy…pure and simple. Jesus Himself stated that he would not “personally”(implied)judge but only as the Father revealed His judgement to Him(Jesus) – and He was clearly not referring to parsing scripture in The Father’s name as a means of discerning that judgement..
I apologize for sounding so angry, but it grieves me so much to see people duped into believing false teachers and scam artists, which is exactly what the Roberts are. I also have fallen for scams from Bob Tilton, Marilyn Hickey, and John Avanzini in the past. But I forgive all of those people. And one word of caution, beware of John Hagee, as Hank Hanegraaff proved Hagee is really into false doctrine. The bottom line, Richard, Lindsay, and Oral Roberts should be forgiven, but everybody needs to know they are false teachers leading their followers away from the true faith and into the kingdom of the cults, as all faith movement teachers are doing, but the Roberts are really selfish people who do not care that they are robbing millions of people. Thank God the Professors stood up for truth and brought this lawsuit!! Adios
Hey Mack, I think the problem with pastors (or any Christian) driving a benz is that Jesus also told his disciples “if you have two coats, give one to another…” etc. (I guess that means if you have two benzes you should give one to the transportationless single mom down the block.) Pastors are not CEO’s of major capitalist corporations (who are also disgustingly overpaid in this country) they are supposed to lead their congregations by example to do what Jesus did…e.g. lay down his life for his friends. They don’t get paid out of profits either. They are paid out of the donations of people like my mom, who works for ORU and makes less than $18,000.00 a year and has no retirement plan. They are paid out of the donations of sick people, poor people, people on welfare and people who really can’t spare the money. If the Roberts family really is spending money as the allegations say, then they shouldn’t ask people to sacrifice their grocery and medication money to keep the ministry afloat.
Unlike some, I don’t really doubt the Roberts’ good intentions, I do think they are stuck in the same wrongheadedness that has led so many other telepastors to destroy the faith of their followers over a few shekels. They lead people astray by demanding that others exercise their faith by sharing what they have to very last penny when they themselves don’t have to shoulder the same burdens that others carry. On a theological note, how interesting it is that Mother Theresa questioned her own faith yet lived it to the bone, caring for lepers, wearing simple robes and sandals and eschewing wealth when people like the Roberts constanctly profess their faith while granting themselves every luxury?
You know what’s bad is that all this was and is based on a disgruntal employee who I’m sure if you look into his backgrounds you will find that they are basis of the political scandal. Furthermore, they sure are prime examples of Christianity – Why don’t you ask them about the student that was fixing the computer and how many other jobs he just happen to have where he could report to the professor in question. What’s scary is that these people taught at the school and now they have questions about finances. Wake up America – sounds like a wife (professor) scorned. The person who reported this is not all that clean himself and he also had/has ties into government even now. What this professor is doing and has done is out of order and definately speaks to why he was fired! There is a RIGHT way to do everything.
FRAUD? As a former employee of the ministry in the 80s, I witnessed FRAUD on a first-hand experience. After that experience and a decade attending Victory Christian Center, Bible College and believing the false message of “name-it / claim-it” and “believe and receive prosperity” I eventually got tired of living the life of a hypocrite and became shamed of Christians and their abandonment of the true meaning of the Bible. I later became agnostic as a result of it all. Back to the FRAUD. God allegedly told Oral to build the City of Faith. If God told him to build it, why did it fail? Does anything fail that God is truly behind? While the City of Faith was struggling and right before Oral announced God was going to kill him if he didn’t raise $8M dollars (Wow, how terrible it must be to have that much pressure placed upon you by your God!), FRAUD was being committed at the hospital. Richard had just launched his show and it was being used, in part, to promote the City of Faith. Richard would go and interview people at the City of Faith, claiming they had come from all around the world to seek treatment at a Godly hospital. FRAUD! On a regular basis, hospital and university staff would be asked to leave their office and go to the clinic/hospital and lie about who they were, where they were from and pretend to be sick–pretend to be a patient! Now, how Biblical is it, and how much morals and ethics do you have, when you are willing to get on TV and purposely orchastrate a fraud upon others, in order to inspire them to give money and/or come to Tulsa to get medical treatment? I refused to be apart of the scam and forever believe that God allowed it to close because it was being used in a fraudulent manner. It is worth noting that the 2.2M sq. ft facility still loses money each year and has never been profitable for the ministry. Perhaps God cursed it after the scam. Lastly, I was on the elevator one night, at the City of Faith, leaving work very late. Oral and Richard both got onto the elevator and I overhood a disturbing conversation. Oral stated to Richard, “We have to come up with a new project. People won’t give money unless they have something they can see it going to.” This was while they were struggling to keep the City of Faith open in 1983. Makes you wonder, was the City of Faith just a project that Oral devised, and because it was not God inspired, it failed? I can only say that what I have read about students being kicked out for not paying bills and being pregnant is true. The ministry built the homes in the “compound” that the family live in for Free, and purchased the multi-million dollar home (today’s value) that Oral calls his California home. The ministry owns its own jet. They drive lavish cars and have rediculous salaries and spiffs. I don’t think God likes being mocked, and perhaps He is finally allowing the truth to come out about these self-appointed and self-annointed people that live off of the donations of poor, elderly and middle-class individuals and students that borrow money to attend an over-priced university that leaves them scarred and victims when they graduate–if they make it that far. May the truth set them Free–or their lies set the Ministry free of them.
Why would Lindsey spend that much money on clothes, and never think about a decent hairdresser?? I mean for years I would tune in to the T.V. show they appear on, and say to myself… She has got to be crazy, or something !!! Why dosn’t somebody tell her to do somthing to that messy rats nest of a hairdo? I mean really, am I the only one that has noticed the oddity of her appearance? Oh yes and the constant head bobbing of agreement to everything hubby says. That too has always irked my senses for their sincerity and sanity.
I personally don’t see anything wrong with Lindsay’s hair style or her clothes. They are being judged for things that are none of our business…she agrees with her husband and that is admirable when she shakes her head…it shows the people out there judging where she stands… I think she’s sincere.
Right on about LR hairstyles! Every time I would see her I wondered how she thought her hair looked combed, let alone style. All squished up and much like a rat’s nest. And she needs all the “relaxed fit” clothing like Chico’s sells since she really has put on a lot of middle-age weight. Nothing personal here, just an impression of how she looks on TV.
I have always heard…if a christian is getting attacked they must be doing something right and the devil is attacking trying to stop them from the ministry…
Rita, according to your rationale, then it would be impossible for God to shed light upon those that are making a mockery of Him, or are doing evil; for whenever God does so, narrow-minded people, such as yourself, will just claim, “Oh, its the Devil attacking this Godly man.” Exactly how does God reveal a wolf in a sheep’s clothing or let anyone know they are being deceived by the devil? God help the ignorant that can’t see a foot in front of themselves, or put together a rationale thought.
Mr John,
You are forgetting the scripture judge not unless you want to be judged in the same way…
only God has the right to judge…and IF the person(s) are doing wrong it won’t be brought to the Light by people opinionated and can only slam by their OPINIONS
And how does God bring it to the light, if he must do so absent any human involvement? It says not to judge them, but you are to judge their fruit and use discernment. We are not suppose to give and support every ministry out there and not question whether they are doing God or their own will. Supporting ministries without holding them accountable is wasting God’s money and helping to perpertrate frauds. God says that the church and people claiming they are called of God into ministry are to be accountable. That is why a church must have elders. Richard Roberts claims in a recorded tape that he “has the deck stacked” and anyone that doesn’t go along with him, he removes. Defend this ministry all that you want. They bible spoke of those that would be misled. It is people that are so timid and afraid to speak up, in fear of offending God, that allows people to remain in ministry that should not be. Remember the crook Robert Tilton?
I am a pastor of a church in Texas. I work 2 jobs, 1 at night to support myself and my wife and kids. everything that comes into the church goes towards ministry. we minister to alot of addicts, prostitutes, gays and lesbians and poor people. we do not take offerings or have a time where we pass a plate. we have a plate at the front of the church if people want to give. we believe God for everything we have. that being said the bible clearly states that in the last days they would make merchandise of the Gospel, and would creep into silly peoples houses and take from them. How? through the Television. the number 1 thing I face as a pastor is people that have been hurt by prosperity preachers. that is why we do not take up a collection because we want people to know we are not after their money
unfortunately the bible says that through greed that men and women who once were faithful would fall from the faith. the damage that alot of these TV preacers have done is amazing which I have seen first hand. they have taken the truths of Gods covenant and perverted them for private gain,. to where now you almost cannot preach the message because of the abuses….!!!!!
the healing revivals of Orals time had many great men and women of God but was brought to an end for this very reason, because the gift of God was being perverted by people for profit.
Does God Prosper? yes, but he sends the rain on the just and the unjust. his covenant with us is a contract of blessing, healing, forgiveness and eternal salvation. there are no quick gimicks to these things but come to pass as you walk them out by faith. you cannot buy a miracle from God because Jesus already bought it for us. God is not after your money he is after your soul. he is the giver not the taker.
there are many people who cannot be reached with the message of Gods salvation because of the perversion of that message and the damage done by these preachers. it were better they had never been on television.
the thing that is lacking is the heart of God for people. if someone is gay or lesbian that is no greater sin then someone who eats to much. Gods love cannot fail and we have been seeing gays come in and be saved when alot of churches wouldn’t let them in the door. i have never had to say one thing about their lifestyle but simply tell them of what God has done for them by Jesus Christ and they all except it 100 percent. and then God changes them as he sees fit. its not my job to change people its Gods job. he said fish for men, not clean the fish.
the thing lacking in the church is love. love for God, his word, His Spirit, and love for people. without love then this becomes a religion, a philosophy, a business!!! love would motivate you to work 2 jobs to gain their trust just so you can reach more people with the message. love would motivate you to help a girl who gets pregnant and not kick them to the curb like an animal, love would reach out to the gay and lesbian, drunkard and drug addict. love would make you where everything you had and are comes from God and is His for the asking at anytime!
bottom line is I don’t need a mansion or drive a mercedes to be prosperous. prosperity is finding the will of God for my life and doing it. when I am in His will i am prosperous!
Rita, grow up, quote the actual chapter and verse, and recognize that the Roberts have judged from the moment this lawsuit came out. Unless you can’t comprehend their statements, you can’t possibly say that they are in a “prayerful” attitude when responding, or that they are completely righteous in this instance. Am I judging? I am pointing out what they have said. read the rest of my posts on this matter here; go find the oct. 1 Fox News article and their response within that article. it’s villifying, inflammatory, defaming, and disrespectful of FORMER EMPLOYEES, one tenured. I’m alumni, I’m upset, and I’m not alone; speaking with my professors, they confirmed that most alumni give limited gifts to specific departments. that alone tells you, or should tell you, that the general temperature of those who have LIVED ORU don’t want to support the general university with their funds. wonder why that would be… and please don’t come back with a baseless statement about “friends” you know that have a better perspective. I got my BS there (literally) and I was in leadership 2 out of 4 yrs. do some research, and have an opinion that takes more than a speed-dial to the prayer tower.